In Episode 2, Elana and Robin invite their friend and colleague, Gabrielle Kaplan-Mayer to help them tackle the question of what Jews believe about the afterlife. Unsurprisingly, it resulted in many more questions!

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Show Notes:

  • Gabrielle Kaplan-Mayer
  • Vocabulary
    • Here are some words mentioned during this episode and their definitions:
      • Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
      • Dybbuk (Hebrew – “adhere” or “cling”): In Jewish mythology, a malicious possessing spirit believed to be the dislocated soul of a dead person.
      • Gilgul (Hebrew – “cycle” or “wheel”): Gilgul is a concept of reincarnation or “transmigration of souls” in Kabbalistic esoteric mysticism. Souls are seen to cycle through lives or incarnations, being attached to different human bodies over time.
      • Intuitive Perspective: the view that the mind must make an inner journey into the soul, must become vulnerable and open to insights whose conclusions rest on the foundation of an inner sense of trust.
      • Kabbalah: Jewish Kabbalah is a set of esoteric teachings meant to explain the relationship between the unchanging, eternal God and the mortal, finite universe (God’s creation). It forms the foundation of mystical religious interpretations within Judaism.
      • Kabbalist: a follower of the ancient Jewish mystical tradition of Kabbalah.
      • Mitzvah/Mitzvot: a Hebrew word that roughly translates to “commandment.” Commonly interpreted as “a good deed.” The term mitzvah comes from the root word tzavta, which means “connection.” What makes a mitzvah a mitzvah is its emphasis on action.
      • Olam HaBa (Hebrew – “the world to come”): In Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium.
      • Rationalist Perspective: the view that regards reason as the chief source and test of knowledge. Holding that reality itself has an inherently logical structure, the rationalist asserts that a class of truths exists that the intellect can grasp directly.
      • Talmud (Hebrew -“Study” or “Learning”): Commonly refers toa record of the rabbinic debates in the 2nd-5th century on the teachings of the Torah, both trying to understand how they apply and seeking answers for the situations they themselves were encountering.
      • Teshuvah: Typically, teshuvah is translated from the Hebrew as “repentance”, but it literally means return, as if turning back to something you’ve strayed or looked away from.
  • Further reading:

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Transcript:

 Elana
Hey Robin.

Robin
Hi! You ready for our next episode? 

Elana
I definitely am. First, let’s remind our listeners what it is we’re doing here and who we are. 

Robin
So, I’m Robin Matthews. I’m Jewish Learning Venture’s graphic designer and the Director of PJ Our Way Engagement and jkidpride. 

Elana
And I’m Jewish Learning Venture’s CEO Elana Rivel. And we are the hosts of More Than 4, a blogcast that answers — or at least opens a discussion about — some of the many questions people have about Judaism. 

Robin
And as a reminder, these questions actually come from our listeners via email or social media. So if anyone listening now has questions about Judaism, Jewish traditions, culture, holidays, words, really anything, you should send them to us and we’ll answer them in an upcoming episode.

Elana
Excellent. Okay, let’s jump right in then. 

Robin
So one of our listeners sent in this question, Do Jews believe in heaven? 

Elana
Another softball.

Robin
No. Yeah, we discussed that none of them are actually softballs. I thought some of them would be, but it turns out they’re all super complex 

Elana
Because…they all have this range of thought behind them and people believe so many different things.

Robin
Yeah, I mean it’s kind of like all things in Judaism, right? Because, like, there’s like the sort of official beliefs like what Torah and Talmud and the rabbis have discussed over the years, but then there’s also, like, just what every individual person believes and thinks about spiritually. 

Elana
Exactly. So for today, let’s talk about the traditional Jewish understanding of what happens after you die with the understanding that this subject, like everything in Judaism, is always up for discussion and conversation. 

Robin
That sounds great. And to begin the conversation, let’s invite our friend and colleague, Gabrielle Kaplan-Mayer, to join us. Gabby, JLV’s Chief Program Officer, has a master’s degree in Jewish studies from the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College and is studying to become a spiritual director and thinks about spiritual questions a lot. This is actually on her mind all the time, so let’s welcome Gabby. 

Elana
Hi Gabby. 

Gabby
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, guys. So I wanna really applaud whoever shared the question. I think it’s so important that we talk about this. That is one certainty we know that every human being comes into this world and we’re all gonna exit it, you know? And so I think we don’t talk enough about the afterlife and about questions we have, and just to normalize that all human beings think about this. And I think in our, not just our Jewish culture, but our greater American culture, there can be ways that we fear those conversations about end of life, but I have noticed that most people think about these questions quite  a lot. So that’s where I wanted to begin. Are you seeking an answer from a rationalist perspective or an intuitive perspective? Because both can be found within our tradition and —

Robin
Wait, I don’t even know what those words mean. Like what are you even talking about? 

Gabby
Yeah, so rationalist is the part of Judaism that really sort of embraced less of the spiritual, mystical — but, you know, rational thinking we follow these laws, this is how we live, like very “of the academy.” You know? Science based, right? And I’m really interested in physics and how, you know Einstein — he brought this whole different idea of the nature of the universe to us. It didn’t mean that it didn’t exist before Einstein brought it to us, but we didn’t have a way to conceive of the universe, right, until he did. And there’re physicists who are working in that realm now, who are understanding much more of what might actually be a very cool integration of the mystical understandings that, from our Jewish tradition…so when we answer this question, that’s what I mean, like, are we looking for the answer to the question from like, what can science prove? Or what has been my intuitive experience around death, dying, and my understanding. And so I’ll share a little bit from those ideas. 

Robin
So I don’t know who exactly asked this. I know that a lot of people asked this question, which is why it made it onto the podcast. But I think that the question really came from like, I know people will often say, well, Jews don’t believe in hell, so, doesn’t matter. Like, you can’t, there’s no, like, “I’m going to hell for this.” Whatever. Like, that doesn’t exist. And so the question I think came from sort of like…

Gabby
What happens? 

Robin
Well, is it just heaven? Does everyone go to heaven? Do I have to be good? 

Gabby
Oh, I totally, Robin. I affirm that for sure. And I think that there’s a way to think about that question, right? That is rational and science — 

Robin
But in a very, like, clear cut way. 

Gabby
Yeah. Well, guess what? You’re in the wrong tradition. 

Robin
No, I know. 

Gabby
There ain’t no clear cut! 

Robin
But can we say definitively?

Gabby
No! We can’t!

Robin
Just simmer down for a second! Is there anywhere in Jewish writing, conversation, commentary  —that mentions, like the, heaven and hell…the both. 

Gabby
Oh, oh yes. Yeah. A lot. But it’s not dominant at all. So a lot of that description, that imaginable description that we hold of a heaven and hell, comes to us because if you’re in the United States, culturally, you’re living in a Christian society. And so in our pop culture, even if you have never attended church service or read scriptures or have Christian friends or whatever, it’s all through our pop culture and media and movies — this description of heaven and hell.

Elana
So it, actually, there is stuff in our text, I mean, in the Talmud. The rabbis do discuss it. 

Gabby
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. But it’s not the idea of a, of a hell. 

Elana
Yeah. That’s true.

Gabby
Not in the way that —

Elana
…that we imagine because of our pop culture. 

Gabby
Right. And I wanna really make that distinction.

Elana
Yes. 

Gabby
And when it’s named in Jewish cuture, It’s one of a number of ideas. So we don’t have a black and white idea. I mean, through our tradition is this idea of olam habah — a world to come —  and an idea that the soul that’s placed in us is going to live on.

Robin
And Jews have very prescribed death and dying rituals, right?

Gabby
We do. 

Robin
And that presumably lead to what we believe and understand about what happens after you die. That’s my understanding. So I was sort of brought up to understand you’re buried in a plain pine box box because it —

Elana
Even before then, right? You have someone who stays with your body in between the time of your death and your burial in order to — they’re called shomrim — they’re called guardians — to watch over, to guard you. To ensure that nothing happens to your body and your soul, right? 

Gabby
For sure, and I would just say that people are in this world through the lens, in my understanding, of peoplehood, right? And there are lots of Jews who identify as Jewish through their cultural experience and who don’t believe any of that.

Robin
No, but I’m just saying like in terms of this, like, you don’t pierce anything or tattoo anything so that your body stays whole, so that something after death. But I don’t know what that something is. 

Gabby
That’s, that’s where I’m saying from the beginning to be with the question. The real difference between Judaism and Christianity is you’re not going to get, you’re gonna get lots of different ideas about olam habah. This desire that you have — that you have to like, “but we’ve all seen that; in heaven, you sit on a cloud and you have halos and, like, that seems nice. That’s what’s gonna happen.” I’m suggesting that in our tradition, we’ve had writings who imagined it’s gonna be this, but others say this. There’s a comfort — and this is what makes Judaism very powerful to me — in saying that we human beings are here living in mystery. You know, again, going back to the kabbalistic times, we get the very specific writing of gilgul, incarnation of the soul, and that there are many Jewish people who have no idea that that would be one possibility of what happens to the soul — that only know that from Eastern traditions and lots of people who have sought Eastern traditions, because that idea of reincarnation really resonated with them. It’s a very Jewish idea from the mystical lens. Now, not from the rationalist lens. A great expert who’s from Philadelphia is Simcha Raphael, Dr. Simcha Raphael, who’s written at length. His book is Jewish Views of the Afterlife, and he has lots of really great stuff. So I would go and do more reading because there isn’t an easy answer. Many people, myself included, have had experiences of loved ones who’ve passed on and feeling their presence. My mom, who died two years ago, comes in my dreams a lot. I think both are validated within our tradition that some of us can approach it and try and determine from that rationalist way. And some of us would follow more in the tradition of the kabbalists. And really say, like, I’ve gotta leave my rationalist brain to even be in the imaginal realm of trying to conceive of the afterlife. So I apologize, listener! 

Robin
No answer!

Gabby
It’s, it’s, well, the, the answer is go read, tune into yourself and get, just like we’re doing, get some friends to discuss it with. ‘Cause I think the healthiest thing for all of us would be if we could actually talk about the afterlife more and death. 

Robin
So I was in a group and we were talking about, or we were asked what we believe happens after you died.

Gabby
Yeah. That’s awesome. 

Robin
Yeah. And so my answer was, and has always, has not always been, but has been for several years, “whatever you want to happen, happens after you die.” It’s like you create, you manifest it almost. Which is hard for people who struggle with faith, I think, to believe. Like, if you don’t know, how can you know? And I feel strongly that I know it’ll be what I want it to be. Yeah. And it’s funny ‘cause my dad, who is an atheist — culturally Jewish, raised Jewish, and is an atheist — has very good friend, like his best friend died maybe 10 years ago, and he said, “I know that if he, if there was any way for him to have contacted me after he died, he would have. And he hasn’t.” But I think that’s more about my dad,

Gabby
The not being, not noticing. It’s interesting. There’s a really good book called Signs. She does talk about that, how sometimes it’s so long, like you’re waiting and waiting. And yeah, that’s a real interesting relationship. We also have all these folk ways, right? So we have, like, folk stories and stuff that was not the rabbis writing in the Talmud. A lot of those were from women, okay? Who were not able to be in those conversations and have their voices recorded in the Talmud. And that’s also where we get into, like, the dybbuks, like the ghosts. These stories about, maybe a soul that was, like, stuck between realms and for whatever reason wasn’t to go on that journey and that that’s there. It’s just in our folk tradition. 

Robin
Something I remember, asking this question, asking my rabbi this question when I was like 13, asking him about, like, the Jewish belief on the afterlife. And he was like, “yeah, there’s heaven, but there’s no hell.” That was his take on it. And we’re, you know, and in that conversation I remember talking about the difference between the common belief in Christianity that you are living for death. You’re living for what happens to you after, your goodness determines what happens to you after you die. Whereas in Judaism it’s like, you’re living for living. And I feel like that’s a crucial thing to mention. 

Gabby
It’s dramatically different. Right? It’s a dramatically different way that we live our life and that, to some extent, that’s why there is this sort of, just, acknowledgement of mystery of unknown, like, we’ve thought maybe this, and we wrote about that, but then the kabbalists said this, and you’ll find this folk story, like we’re comfortable. To me, it’s actually an important humility, and that’s just my take of being in this human realm, being like, oh, this is really an odd predicament we’re in. We’re all here on this earth wondering what happens. But because we’re here, we don’t know. And that I find within the Jewish tradition, it’s really posited more as, these are ideas as opposed to — and not, I wanna distinguish in the Christian world, of course there’s progressive, more expansive thinking Christianity, but certainly in like an evangelical tradition, what you’re describing is not only true, but a lot of people live their lives in fear. You know, it’s a fear-based approach to life. Whereas in Judaism, I feel like that we have this idea of teshuvah, we can always do repairs. That takes a lot of the fear out of life. Like I really believe if I am trying my best, you know, when the day comes that my soul leaves my body and I haven’t been perfect ‘cause I’m human and I’ve messed up, but I’ve really tried to make repairs. That’s how we wanna end our lives. 

Elana
I think something that we may talk about in a future episode around mitzvot or good deeds and things we’re commanded to do and the difference, the nuance between the two of them, one of the mitzvot that we are expected to do at someone’s burial is help to cover the coffin. Right? We’re actually supposed to put the dirt on the actual coffin. And the idea is it is the one mitzvah that cannot be reciprocated.. And to me, there’s something very powerful that connects to what you’re talking about, of this idea of being present in this world and helping to escort somebody’s soul, you know, as they leave. And that process is part of those rituals also that you described earlier. But I think that that’s another layer of this conversation as well. 

Gabby
Absolutely.

Robin
That was a really great discussion. Thank you so much, Gabby. 

Elana
Thank you. 

Robin
That was awesome.

Gabby
Thank you for having me. Anytime.

Robin
Of course it left so much room for more questions and answers. 

Elana
More than four? 

Robin
Yeah, that jokes could get old at some point, right? 

Elana
Yep. And probably sooner than later. 

Robin
Yeah, probably.  Okay. But let’s remind our listeners how they can ask their questions and get their answers.

Elana
Okay. If you have a question about Judaism and clearly no question is too big or too small, let us know. Send us an email at “morethan4” using the number, “More than4 st jewishlearningventure dot org. Tweet us at at jlearnventure. Find us on facebook at facebook dot com slash jlearnventure or reply in a comment wherever you found this podcast linked.

Robin
Okay, until the next episode. 

Elana
See ya. 

Robin
See ya.